tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post5161679868458073069..comments2024-03-27T22:28:06.861-06:00Comments on Dispatches From Turtle Island: New Northern Iberian Ancient DNA Doesn't Shake Basque Bell Beaker HypothesisAndrew Oh-Willekehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-32174340551384317472019-08-21T10:47:28.680-06:002019-08-21T10:47:28.680-06:00A very interesting section on my haplogroup, H-P96...A very interesting section on my haplogroup, H-P96TJSMCRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17801353097041959534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-18686057774594565982015-09-11T16:05:18.858-06:002015-09-11T16:05:18.858-06:00"Razib believes that EEF = WHG + 'basal E..."Razib believes that EEF = WHG + 'basal Eurasian'; and Berbers = 'paleo-North African' + 'basal Eurasian'. Which is probably correct".<br /><br />Very clearly incorrect, IMO. <br /><br />EEF = West Asian of "Arab", "southern" or "lowlander" type + lesser NE African (Basal Eurasian) + UHG (~WHG). <br /><br />NW African = minor Aterian (OoA epoch) layer (more apparent in some isolate populations) + Paleoeuropean (proto-WHG, Oranian layer) + NE African with ancient West Asian admixture (Basal Eurasian, Capsian layer) + minor recent West African. Most probably because the studies are a bit limited but that's what Henn and myself have approximated in separate analyses. <br /><br />On one side, there is a strong European, probably Paleo-Iberian, component in NW Africa that cannot be ignored. On the other, "lowlander" West Asian cannot be just described as "Basal Eurasian" (it goes against the grain of Lazaridis' definition). <br /><br />Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-86626556904738578462015-09-11T13:40:03.533-06:002015-09-11T13:40:03.533-06:00Present-day Sardinians are a close fit for early E...Present-day Sardinians are a close fit for early European farmers. Lazaridis and Skoglund papers show a migration edge from Dinka into Sardinia, Stuttgart, Gokhem. Present-day Sardinians have several different clades of haplogroup E and A which are not present in Fertile Crescent populations but occur in Africans. And HLA haplotypes in Sardinia and Corsica which clearly derive from African populations and are either low frequency or non-existent in the fertile crescent. While I agree that 'basal Eurasian' (which is likely African-derived) has diffused from the Fertile Crescent, I am certain that the high levels of EEF/basal Eurasian in Sardinia and Sicily (Europe's highest levels in fact) is only due in part to Fertile Crescent origins but is due in greater part to the genetic impact of admixture from a Saharan population in prehistory. Anyway, Razib believes that EEF = WHG + 'basal Eurasian'; and Berbers = 'paleo-North African' + 'basal Eurasian'. Which is probably correct.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13013399855770625556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-49278780547851786372015-09-11T12:45:12.981-06:002015-09-11T12:45:12.981-06:00As Razib also pointed out, any similarity is more ...As Razib also pointed out, any similarity is more likely mostly due to Fertile Crescent Neolithic peoples surging both North to Europe and West Asia, and South to Egypt and beyond.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-6662290096497054352015-09-11T11:10:52.825-06:002015-09-11T11:10:52.825-06:00"The North African v. European PCA in this st..."The North African v. European PCA in this study's Supplemental Materials is something that is particularly damning for that hypothesis."<br /><br />The reason I think is because the Sardinians and early European farmers aren't necessarily *Berber-shifted*, but are Sudanic-shifted [like Dinka] - this is the so-called 'Basal Eurasian'. <br /><br />I think that Nilo-Saharan, Chadic, and Cushitic populations, [and potentially also Fulani], may have more of this type of shift - but many Berbers do not [some likely do].Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13013399855770625556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-2717945735088148022015-09-10T23:03:50.540-06:002015-09-10T23:03:50.540-06:00Artenac is related but it is a more northernly cul...Artenac is related but it is a more northernly culture. AFAIK there is no Artenacian in Iberia, even if Artenacian is clearly somehow related to Iberia (Bell Beaker, "modest" Megalithism, bow & arrow weaponry, material exchanges...) The Iron Age Basque ethno-cultural area is actually defined in the negative by the Celtic "siege", first by the South and East (broken in the East by the Iberianization of Catalonia c. 550 BCE) and then in the South (Celtiberians) and North (La Tène Gauls). It's surely similar to what caused the Ligurian genesis: defensive need of unity. <br /><br />Basque should not be confused with Vasconic anyhow. Vasconic in those times surely corresponds to all the various populations of the mainline Neolithic (EEF and derived) of Aegean roots, i.e. most Europeans in the late Neolithic and early Chalcolithic. <br /><br />"... a potential role for the Rossen culture and the Chasseen culture".<br /><br />Rossen was smashed by Michelsberg (the most dynamic "funnelbeaker" culture), what is as much as saying that ENs were replaced by MNs in West-Central Europe, something we already know. <br /><br />As for Chassey-La Lagozza, it may well be at the Ligurian roots but does not seem to have any particular relation to Basques, ancient or modern. In fact we have a post-Chassey sample known as Treilles and it is pretty much EN/EEF and not yet MN at all. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-34456660169782313982015-09-10T18:21:46.689-06:002015-09-10T18:21:46.689-06:00FWIW, I've hypothesized that Artenac may be th...FWIW, I've hypothesized that Artenac may be the immediate predecessor to Northern Iberian Vasconic people in the November 2011 post,as well as mentioning a potential role for the Rossen culture and the Chasseen culture. I have, for better or worse, conceptually lumped them together as Bell Beaker influenced.<br /><br />"Native American Q1 and Finno-Ugric N1 are good examples. Or probably also Chadic R1b-V88 in Central Africa, etc."<br /><br />Excellent examples.<br /><br />"3) North Africa in 3500 along both sides of Iberia<br /><br />Time to catch more arrows for the last one."<br /><br />Yeah. I still think this theory is not supported by the evidence. At first look it has plausibility. But, the more you look at the detailed DNA evidence, the less plausible it becomes. The North African v. European PCA in this study's Supplemental Materials is something that is particularly damning for that hypothesis.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-21516729192174101912015-09-09T21:08:08.711-06:002015-09-09T21:08:08.711-06:00We'll I think this recent individual increases...We'll I think this recent individual increases the probability that the Baalberg man was R something and the other one one as well (Rossen?)that was also ambiguous. So it does seem possible that by the MN these were established in some areas.<br />On the other hand though, if you look at the Isles the frequency in so high among natives that it must be either 1) reformed Native Mesolithic with trimmed mustaches 2) farmers with little foreign males 3) Beaker immigration. After weeding out Norman and Viking surnames, what percentage in Ireland or Wales isn't R1b, 4%?<br />But again, Globular Amphora, Baalberg, Rossen, Peterborough, Artenac, they may start popping up R1bs one after another. I will stand facing the corner.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-14133033120528861772015-09-09T19:20:40.938-06:002015-09-09T19:20:40.938-06:00BBB: Y-DNA lineages can become almost completely d...BBB: Y-DNA lineages can become almost completely disassociated from their autosomal and mtDNA original associates indeed. Native American Q1 and Finno-Ugric N1 are good examples. Or probably also Chadic R1b-V88 in Central Africa, etc. Notice that I said "almost" and that's because even in those extreme cases some lesser trail can still be found in autosomal and mtDNA data. So not quite completely. <br /><br />However what it does not become disassociated is with an archaeological and cultural trail, including probably language. It also seems to happen in peculiar founder effect or low population density situations and not by mere dripping. What we see in all those cases is incorporation of local mtDNA and, with it, autosomal genetics until a point when the original ones associated to the Y-DNA become almost invisible. <br /><br />In the case of Western R1b:<br /><br />It is not a mere matter of "frequency". S116/P312 has a geographic/phylogenetic internal structure ("geostructure" for short) that is exclusively Western with apparent center in modern France, rather to the South. This alone is crucial to understand. Probably its Nordic "brother" U106 also has a NW origin but the matter awaits improved research. <br /><br />In this sense all the rest of R1b upstream of L11 is as important for West Europeans as is Iranian Q* relative to Native Americans or Yunnan's N* relative to Finnish. You take notice of that remote relation and move on because it is precisely that: remote and therefore not too relevant. <br /><br />The fact that between the M269 and the Western nodes (S116 and U106) there is only a thin trail does not help the case of trying to mix these two glasses with the whole bottle over the shelf where they ultimately (but quite trivially) came from. The question is what happened to these two western "glasses" afterwards. And in the case of S116 the story is clear: the glass was originally in Southern France (roughly) and its content was mostly divided in three other glasses: one for the Brits/Irish, another for the Swiss/Italians and another for the Basques/Iberians. The small amount that remained in the original glass (unclassified S116*) seems to be shared between Basques and Irish. <br /><br />How does this relate to West Asia, Eastern Europe, Africa or Uyghuristan? Well, there's a bottle over the shelf, but then you're not looking anymore at this glass and how we poured them in various other smaller glasses. You are just diverting the issue pointlessly: is that attention deficit disorder?<br /><br />I'm really beginning to lose my patience with all this, honestly. S116 is sooo obvious but surely not if you're looking elsewhere. Someone hide that stupid bottle please! <br /><br />Whatever happened between the bottle and the glass is just a thin trail of some M269 → L11 "asterisk" individuals between West Asia and Western Europe. It was fixated in no population (at least not one that survived), it was just another haplogroup among many. It is as relevant as G2a, I2a or E1b. ONLY after the coalescence of S116 (and U106 in the North) things became interesting. <br /><br />So focus, please.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-38247712439749794542015-09-09T18:36:29.917-06:002015-09-09T18:36:29.917-06:00I think it's a good question whether it's ...I think it's a good question whether it's possible for a y-chromosome to be completely disassociated from its original ancestry when it comprises the majority frequency of a derived population. (Beyond individuals)<br /><br />I believe that this is the case in highly refined domesticates where you have super-studs and complex back breeding.<br /><br />So the question is whether R1b could exist in the Atlantic at a decent frequency and be stripped of its Eastern components? I think it's possible but there's no way to tell with no Atlantic dna<br /><br />The other thing is that the particular R1b of modern Western Europe may have reached it from another place 1) VFR direct from Syria to South Eastern Iberia in its Early Chalcolithic (culturally this had been proposed early on)<br />2) with a particular Western epi-Cardial as ancestral to Beaker as erroneously proposed by Bosch-Gimbura<br />3) North Africa in 3500 along both sides of Iberia<br /><br />Time to catch more arrows for the last one.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-58421253959450781812015-09-09T06:30:53.901-06:002015-09-09T06:30:53.901-06:00Andrew: nonsense. Too many instances of nonsense p...Andrew: nonsense. Too many instances of nonsense plaguing a prejudiced analysis in all aspects, that is ignoring the real data (did you ever even read what I wrote about Basque ancient mtDNA?) I would discuss them one by one but feel that it will be worthless and also I'm too tired to bother right now. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.com