tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post5484158211161563986..comments2024-03-28T21:52:52.100-06:00Comments on Dispatches From Turtle Island: Did Hittites and Other PIE Anatolian Language Speakers Lack Steppe Ancestry?Andrew Oh-Willekehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-18490563973141765122018-05-09T12:45:09.265-06:002018-05-09T12:45:09.265-06:00Lazaridis is operating on the assumption, popular ...Lazaridis is operating on the assumption, popular in linguistic circles, that Anatolian languages were widespread in Anatolia from something like 4000-3000 BCE, which is reached based upon the great divergence linguistically of the Anatolian IE languages from the other IE languages (except possibly Tocharian).<br /><br />A lack of an EHG component in Anatolia is inconsistent with that hypothesis.<br /><br />I think that hypothesis is wrong and that almost everyone in Anatolia prior to ca. 2000 BCE was pre-IE and not IE, in which case it isn't surprising to see a lack of EHG in Anatolia.<br /><br />If Anatolian IE languages were widely spoken in Anatolia ca. 4000-3000 BCE and these individuals were IE individuals, however, it would have potential implications for IE origins, although an elite dominance language shift to Anatolian IE languages is a much easier explanation than a Near East IE origin theory, IMHO.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-18951313496060798752018-05-09T04:31:27.188-06:002018-05-09T04:31:27.188-06:00It seems strange to say that a pre IE population i...It seems strange to say that a pre IE population in Anatolia having no EHG component<br />has anything to do with IE origins.<br /><br />Palacistahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18084796325189953926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-71225411395841123832018-05-07T17:22:48.256-06:002018-05-07T17:22:48.256-06:00@Jaap
Language and political control aren't ...@Jaap <br /><br />Language and political control aren't the same thing, but about 500 years passed from Hittite expansion to the collapse of the Hittite empire, and somewhere along the line Hattic had become a purely liturgical language.<br /><br />The timing for Hittite to be a PIE uncle isn't good and it is awfully divergent to hold that spot.<br /><br />I'm agnostic about gender and language transmission.<br /><br />Maijkop is a likely source of at least some of the cultural and technological package of the PIE people, and there does seem to be female mediated introgression into steppe cultures which were EHG first. So, it isn't a stretch to think that it could have had a linguistic influence as well. But, there isn't much solid to support that hypothesis either.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-86605636241538302822018-05-07T15:33:12.275-06:002018-05-07T15:33:12.275-06:00'The most prominent of the languages in this f...'The most prominent of the languages in this family was the Hittite language of the Bronze Age Hittite people who conquered essentially all of Anatolia and some of the Northern Levant and Northern Mesopotamia in the Bronze Age before collapsing in the Bronze Age collapse.'<br />Aren't you confusing language and political control here? The Hittites may well have come as elite guests (coveted brides), to take over within a few generations with the support of a Hattian clacque. They could be from Iran or Caucasus (Majkop), and may have been EHG-less altogether. Hittite-speakers were never very numerous, as later Luwian-speakers obviously were. <br />Couldn't Hittite be an uncle to PIE rather than off-spring? I don't know, it's too big for me. But Majkop for me isn't out as IE-homeland. Spoken language tends to be female-mediated (as opposed to liturgic language, and/or story-telling language).<br />I totally agree to your last point. Jaaphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06965988049158422688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-48313413892280855232018-05-07T13:30:51.837-06:002018-05-07T13:30:51.837-06:00Agree with you totally.
I wanted to add also th...Agree with you totally. <br /><br />I wanted to add also that the Hattians are definitely not IE. The Hittites may have genetically no more IE than the average Peruvian.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-71319566803997897932018-05-07T13:24:13.949-06:002018-05-07T13:24:13.949-06:00I'm a bit surprised at the arguments to reloca...I'm a bit surprised at the arguments to relocate the PIE urheimat based on a few random souls lacking EHG. The thing that sticks out most is the fact that PIE essentially requires two components that make intense contact with each over a reasonably large time and space. <br />The genetic formulation of steppe people gives a very satisfying explanation for the identity and formation their language.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.com