tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post6771783793843129041..comments2024-03-28T21:52:52.100-06:00Comments on Dispatches From Turtle Island: 50 Paleolithic Pathway ParadigmsAndrew Oh-Willekehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-70743956865410994462012-07-19T21:42:01.149-06:002012-07-19T21:42:01.149-06:00"The reduction from current sea levels would ..."The reduction from current sea levels would have had to have been at least 3x to 4x and probably more as great as it was during LGM for a land or shallow water crossing across the Wallace line". <br /><br />I know that Wallace's Line has never been dry land but at periods before 45,000 years ago the sea level may have been lower than it was at 45,000 years ago. I would guess that hamans would be most likely to make it as far as Wallace's Line during some period of lowered sea level, leaving islans in SE Asia larger than they are now and exposing more of them. It is also possible that the original crossing to Australia was made during the period of lowest sea level between after Toba and 45,000 years ago. <br /><br />"Pretty sure that your recollection is wrong on that point but I'll double check sources". <br /><br />I'm fairly sure modern humans appeared in the Levant around 100,000 years ago. Neanderthals replaced them there around 70,000 years ago. Hence comments regarding an earlier OoA. <br /><br />"There is no real evidence for Northern route transmission of Y-DNA C, and there is nothing to suggest that mt-DNA N took a Northern route to Australia, East Asia or SE Asia". <br /><br />But there is certainly no evidence for either having moved east through South Asia. In fact their absence in that region is quite striking. <br /><br />"I don't think that there is any evidence of either modern humans or H. Erectus in Central Asia (well until you get to about Denisova which is almost East Asia) within any reasonable time after Neanderthals come into being (although there isn't a lot of evidence period)". <br /><br />There is actually quite a bit of evidence for humans through Central Asia from Altai to the Upper Amur for quite some time. I provided Maju with some links but he refused to consider them. I've just retrieved them. <br /><br />This 2005 paper also claims a connection between Altai and Mongolian H. erectus (specifically Middle Paleolithic), and even claims a connection into Northern China: <br /><br />http://ejournal.anu.edu.au/index.php/bippa/article/view/85/76<br /><br /> The following 2009 study is also relevant: <br /><br />http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/03/11/the-date-of-birth-for-peking-man-gets-pushed-back-200000-years/<br /><br />Quote: <br /><br />"In a comment accompanying the new study, [anthropologist Russell] Ciochon and Iowa geologist Arthur Bettis III hypothesize that H. erectus populations in or just outside of Africa took two separate routes eastward into Asia. Ciochon and Bettis propose that an initial migration followed Asia’s southern coast to Java, which was at the time connected to the mainland. Later, H. erectus passed through central Asia and southern Mongolia to reach the Zhoukoudian vicinity [Science News]. Researchers also note that a huge swath of primeval forest separated the two populations, which they say supports the double-migration theory".terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-50984036265232240912012-07-19T18:57:06.532-06:002012-07-19T18:57:06.532-06:00Re: What about 20,000 years before that?
Sea leve...Re: What about 20,000 years before that?<br /><br />Sea level at LGM ca. 20kya was, as I understand the matter, lower than at any other time until the pre-MIS 5 interglacial, i.e. considerably earlier than 130kya. And, the sea at the Wallace line gap in Indonesia is much, much deeper than any of the prior Indonesian straights exposed during the LGM. The reduction from current sea levels would have had to have been at least 3x to 4x and probably more as great as it was during LGM for a land or shallow water crossing across the Wallace line. In the last 2 million years, this may have happened as some point. In the last 150,000 years it almost surely didn't.<br /><br />"As I understand the situation Neanderthals are not present in the Levant at the time of earlier modern human appearance there."<br /><br />Pretty sure that your recollection is wrong on that point but I'll double check sources.<br /><br />"I see Maju is still claiming that the lack of an Upper Paleolithic industry indicates absence of genetically modern humans."<br /><br />I'm on the fence. Recent re-examination of Neanderthal-modern human era transition fossils in Southern Europe has show more definitive association between tool cultures and species than had been previously supposed. And, while there are some kinds of stone tools that are ambiguous (as are certain kinds of crude burials), there are some almost uniquely modern human traces (e.g. use of bone tools, art of any sophistication, and fishing harpoons) that have been found even in Mesolithic modern human settings in African that are completely absent from any Neolithic sites. The modern human v. Neanderthal mix of food animal bone remains also appears to be quite distinct. And, subtle or controversial doesn't mean indistinguishable.<br /><br />I don't think that there is any evidence of either modern humans or H. Erectus in Central Asia (well until you get to about Denisova which is almost East Asia) within any reasonable time after Neanderthals come into being (although there isn't a lot of evidence period).<br /><br />"it is very difficult to fit mt-DNA N and Y-DNA C with it."<br /><br />There is no real evidence for Northern route transmission of Y-DNA C, and there is nothing to suggest that mt-DNA N took a Northern route to Australia, East Asia or SE Asia. There are complications about how many waves, etc. were involved in the Asian mix, but I just don't see any evidence that first wave Asians made their trip that way. <br /><br />There isn't even any evidence of modern humans in North Asia at all prior to sometime about 30kya to 40 kya.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-47572486212550748012012-07-19T02:26:47.301-06:002012-07-19T02:26:47.301-06:00A further thought:
"The arrival of modern h...A further thought: <br /><br />"The arrival of modern humans in Australia and Papua New Guinea, as I understand it, took place at a time when Indonesia up to the Wallace line has not yet been connected to mainland Asia as it was during the last glacial maximum when sea levels were lower. Indonesia was (and the Philippines were), as it is today, an island chain divided by shallow water ocean straights around 45,000 years ago". <br /><br />But what was the situation as much as 20,000 years before that? Perhaps the crossing was in fact made at a time of very low sea level at some period immediately post Toba. It's just that the earliest definite evidence we have for Australia is around 45,000 years ago. That doesn't necessarily mean humans first arrived then, although we would expect population to grow rapidly in a newly-exploited environment.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-10323667105330271632012-07-16T22:14:36.152-06:002012-07-16T22:14:36.152-06:00"(2) the first Out of Africa wave ca. 130,000..."(2) the first Out of Africa wave ca. 130,000 to 100,000 years ago was successful and is in continuity with all subsequent non-African populations with the archaeological evidence of modern humans gap from about 100,000 to 75,000 years ago being due either to poor preservation of modern human artifacts and remains, or to relocation of proto-Eurasians to non-Levantine refugium(s) including potentially the Nile Basin, the Horn of Africa, interior Arabia, the Persian Gulf, Iran, and South Asia that remain largely undiscovered at this time. Neither theory is inherently inconsistent with minor subsequent Out of Africa waves of migration, although this possibility doesn't receive wide attention". <br /><br />My vote goes with that. I suspect that the soon-to-be-released paper on the Persian Gulf refugium hypothesis will explain much. <br /><br />"At the time that modern humans migrated out of Africa, Neanderthals were present in the Levant and Europe". <br /><br />As I understand the situation Neanderthals are not present in the Levant at the time of earlier modern human appearance there. Neanderthal re-enter as the climate cooled, exactly the time of the archaeological evidence of modern humans gap from about 100,000 to 75,000 years ago. <br /><br />"In earlier periods when modern humans coexisted with Neanderthals in the Levant, the distinctions are far less clear". <br /><br />And in spite of that I see Maju is still claiming that the lack of an Upper Paleolithic industry indicates absence of genetically modern humans. <br /><br />"the extent to which different tool technologiess strictly correspond to a Homo Erectus v. Neanderthal species distinction in liminal areas like South Asia, when not found in association with hominin remains, is hotly disputed". <br /><br />And I would include Central Asia along with South Asia. <br /><br />"The modern humans who initially arrived in Southeast Asia, Indonesia, Papua New Guinea, Australia, East Asia, Tibet, Oceania and Japan were all descendants of modern humans who traversed India (i.e. they arrived via a 'Southern route')". <br /><br />I wouldn't be too dogmatic about that. I'd agree that mt-DNA M and Y-DNA F fit that scenario but it is very difficult to fit mt-DNA N and Y-DNA C with it.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.com