tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post7911221783958338469..comments2024-03-28T21:52:52.100-06:00Comments on Dispatches From Turtle Island: Ancient DNA Refines New World Settlement ParadigmAndrew Oh-Willekehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-30538087414729520822017-10-20T12:38:27.439-06:002017-10-20T12:38:27.439-06:00@G Horvat
Yes, the one Saqqaq is not even necessa...@G Horvat<br /><br />Yes, the one Saqqaq is not even necessarily representative of the eastern Paleo-Eskimos, and those could be only a subset of a more diverse parent population in Alaska. So we definitely can't assume Q-NWT01 is the only or most common Paleo-Eskimo Y haplogroup. Q-NWT01 is over 20 000 years old (according to Y-Full) and includes among other things Chinese Q-M120, so we don't actually know that the various Arctic Q-NWT01 lineages are particularly closely related.<br /><br />Alaskan Inuit do have a few percent D2, Koryaks also have only like 1% D, but both have lots of Q-NWT01, and Koryaks cluster with Saqqaq autosomally. Aleuts have majority D2 but are *less* Paleo-Eskimo-shifted than Inuit (and have smaller proportion of Q-NWT01 to Q-M3). So looks like uniparental founder effects disconnected from main autosomal ancestry.capra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-72824945177600996322017-10-19T17:31:18.186-06:002017-10-19T17:31:18.186-06:00@Capra. I looked around as well and could find no...@Capra. I looked around as well and could find no hint of any Dorset Y chromosomes. What if our interpretation based upon *one* Saqqaq sequence is wrong? (I was actually a little suspicious when I first found out it was a Q...) <br /><br />If the other Paleo-Eskimo Y chromosomes also happen to belong to classification Q-NWT01, then the situation which exists is that Saqqaq-like Y chromosomes are common in today's Inuit samples but their mtDNA sequence (D2) is absent.G Horvathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09821897990245113279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-15823932277443377582017-10-18T10:57:40.022-06:002017-10-18T10:57:40.022-06:00@andrew
thanks for the summary and useful links
...@andrew<br /><br />thanks for the summary and useful links<br /><br />Regarding dating the most recent I could find, a 2017 book on the Saqqaq site, has it beginning c 2400 BC. They earliest settlement in Greenland (and in the far north and east of the Canadian Arctic) at 2470-2290 cal BC, and further west in the Canadian Arctic 3390-2930 cal BC. All the usual issues with plateaus and reservoir effects. <br />https://books.google.ca/books?id=ou9wDgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false<br /><br />@G Horvat<br /><br />I don't think they released Y hg results, at least I couldn't find any. And there are no public fully sequenced American Arctic Q-NWT01s or C-P39s, which we could compare to their Koryak relatives. There is a lot to be done on the Y DNA front. <br /><br />@Ryan<br /><br />Interesting about the birch tree thing, never heard that before. Would fit into the Paleo-Eskimo arrival time frame that Vajda is arguing for.capra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-83578375925628156272017-10-17T10:01:04.102-06:002017-10-17T10:01:04.102-06:00@Ryan
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/articl...@Ryan<br /><br />http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982217310916 it's open accesscapra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-13649292003357804232017-10-17T08:06:51.090-06:002017-10-17T08:06:51.090-06:00Anyone have the Beothuk study handy? I tried looki...Anyone have the Beothuk study handy? I tried looking for it and came up empty handed.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07906194112935320590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-31306365733489094472017-10-16T18:12:39.509-06:002017-10-16T18:12:39.509-06:00There was another mtDNA study in the European Jour...There was <a href="https://my.nsu.ru/public/publications/attachs.fexec;jsessionid=E02EFCB3598B0D74DB9A74235DE7EADF?attachId=56f0c7d4e4b055bcd0192bda" rel="nofollow">another mtDNA study in the European Journal of Human Genetics</a> in 2015 that examines a broader range of haplogroups. And <a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707632571" rel="nofollow">an earlier mtDNA study</a> in 2000.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-69906700776257446732017-10-16T18:07:58.951-06:002017-10-16T18:07:58.951-06:00The abstract of that paper states:
"In this...The abstract of that paper states: <br /><br />"In this study we evaluated migration models to the Americas by using the information contained in native mitochondrial genomes (mitogenomes) from North America. Molecular and phylogeographic analyses of B2a mitogenomes, which are absent in Eskimo–Aleut and northern Na-Dene speakers, revealed that this haplogroup arose in North America ∼11–13 ka from one of the founder Paleo-Indian B2 mitogenomes. In contrast, haplogroup A2a, which is typical of Eskimo–Aleuts and Na-Dene, but also present in the easternmost Siberian groups, originated only 4–7 ka in Alaska, led to the first Paleo-Eskimo settlement of northern Canada and Greenland, and contributed to the formation of the Na-Dene gene pool. However, mitogenomes also show that Amerindians from northern North America, without any distinction between Na-Dene and non–Na-Dene, were heavily affected by an additional and distinctive Beringian genetic input. In conclusion, most mtDNA variation (along the double-continent) stems from the first wave from Beringia, which followed the Pacific coastal route. This was accompanied or followed by a second inland migratory event, marked by haplogroups X2a and C4c, which affected all Amerindian groups of Northern North America. Much later, the ancestral A2a carriers spread from Alaska, undertaking both a westward migration to Asia and an eastward expansion into the circumpolar regions of Canada. Thus, the first American founders left the greatest genetic mark but the original maternal makeup of North American Natives was subsequently reshaped by additional streams of gene flow and local population dynamics, making a three-wave view too simplistic."andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-63819381416813732062017-10-16T18:05:16.634-06:002017-10-16T18:05:16.634-06:00An mtDNA analysis was published in PNAS in 2013. h...An mtDNA analysis was published in PNAS in 2013. http://www.pnas.org/content/110/35/14308.fullandrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-37811518814635733362017-10-16T17:32:13.007-06:002017-10-16T17:32:13.007-06:00Thanks Capra. Raghavan et al. did not determine...Thanks Capra. Raghavan et al. did not determine the Y chromosome haplotypes of their Dorset samples? There were two more Dorset mtDNA sequences in the recent Beothuk study. G Horvathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09821897990245113279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-33674219871652340772017-10-16T17:20:33.254-06:002017-10-16T17:20:33.254-06:00Yah fair enough. I was a little bothered with Tany...Yah fair enough. I was a little bothered with Tanya Tagaq going after Eskimeaux for their name when Gabrielle Smith is Tlingit. The Tlingit are probably one of if not the closest relatives the Paleo-Eskimos have so I figure the use in that context was kind of legit. For living peoples I do try to do my best to not use terms that may have less than savoury origins in the past. Anthropology has a dark side to its history.<br /><br />Another thing you can use to date the migration by the way is the flora along the Bering Sea. The Dene-Yenesian relationship was first noticed because of the extreme similarity of the terms both use in their process of building barkskin canoes. You can't build those without trees being present, and if I recall correctly trees only grew along the Bering Sea from 8 kya to 4 kya.<br /><br />I don't think this is the whole story though. There's a bunch of people with inflated Asian ancestry and Y-haplogroup C along the Pacific coast who don't speak Dene.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07906194112935320590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-37597068057993425592017-10-16T17:04:32.941-06:002017-10-16T17:04:32.941-06:00@G Horvat
There is a little Q-NWT01 among Dogrib ...@G Horvat<br /><br />There is a little Q-NWT01 among Dogrib and Gwich'in (2/70). Older studies which have covered many more Athapaskan groups did not test for anything more than M3, so there is a bunch of Q* and no way to tell Q-Z780 from Q-NWT01 and whatever else might be out there. There is Q1a(xQ1a2) among Tlingit also, which is likely to be Q-NWT01.<br /><br />Yeah, C2-P39 would make sense since it has a sister branch among Koryaks. And possibly mt hg D3. Too bad all of our Paleo-Eskimo samples are from the eastern Arctic, and there is only a single Paleo-Eskimo Y haplogroup. <br />capra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-8118924012357718222017-10-16T16:29:36.257-06:002017-10-16T16:29:36.257-06:00@Ryan There are lots of terms that you might not u...@Ryan There are lots of terms that you might not use in ordinary language that are standard in a particular academic field. The authors of this pre-print go to a fair amount of effort early on in the paper to justify their choice of terminology and I have chosen to use their terminology in my discussion of their paper so that nothing is lost in translation. <br /><br />In the same way, Aryan is a term to be avoided unless you are talking about Bronze Age pastoralists who migrated to India and their sub-family of the Indo-Iranian languages, and "Indian Country" is a concept that has fallen out of general usage but has a precise legal meaning in the law dealing with the relationship between the United States government and Native American tribes whom it recognizes.<br /><br />It is fairly important not to use Inuit as either of the broad general categories because that would prejudge the point you are attempting to determine. Paleo-Eskimos are absolutely not Inuit, and Inuits are not the only population that counts as a Neo-Eskimo. The status of other archaeological cultures and peoples is a central issue of inquiry here that isn't fully resolved. For example, It isn't entirely clear if members of the Norton Culture are Neo-Eskimos, Paleo-Eskimos, or neither. The authors identified other alternatives that weren't as felicitous.<br /><br />I would write my post differently if it were a story in U.S.A. Today or the Globe and Mail. But, I am writing to educated laymen and to professionals outside the sub-discipline and not to members of the same uneducated general public that can't find North Korea on a map.<br /><br />@Ddeden The apple seed in question was described as a custard apple and a botanical classification was also given. I have never been that motivated to track down the merits of that particular claim.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-78194877663859880422017-10-16T12:57:19.687-06:002017-10-16T12:57:19.687-06:00https://www.britannica.com/plant/crabapple
The onl...https://www.britannica.com/plant/crabapple<br />The only apple in the New World was the crab apple, also of Asia.DDedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10033851770461086341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-17754329070849979162017-10-16T12:42:28.895-06:002017-10-16T12:42:28.895-06:00Just an FYI but in Canada the term Eskimo is consi...Just an FYI but in Canada the term Eskimo is considered an ethnic slur (I realize this is not the case in Alaska, but still). No avoiding that for Paleo-Eskimo peoples I guess, but for modern day Inuit it might be best to avoid the term.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07906194112935320590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-23971530417920475632017-10-16T10:32:29.544-06:002017-10-16T10:32:29.544-06:00The uniparental markers have some utility, especia...The uniparental markers have some utility, especially for Canadian populations, but the samples sizes are too small for American Na-Dene to get the much larger samples you need to do a good NRY or mtDNA study compared to an autosomal study. <br /><br />But, Native Americans in the USA have been very distrustful of the scientific establishment, with understandable reasons, so it is hard to get the sample size high enough to provide meaningful measurements. <br /><br />Also, older studies weren't always as precise as one might hope in providing detail on Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroup subtypes, and since Y-DNA Q of some type or another is predominant in Native Americans, this can render older studies less useful, almost limiting your sample size.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-36139238447827537422017-10-16T09:23:25.347-06:002017-10-16T09:23:25.347-06:00For the interactions across the northern parts of ...For the interactions across the northern parts of America and Asia, I think it would be very useful to include the uniparentally-inherited markers in these comparisons. <br /><br />If Y chromosome Q-NWT01 is the Paleo-eskimo Y chromosome marker, then how prevalent is it in the Nadene-speaking populations? Maybe the Paleo-eskimo markers should be NRY Q-NWT01 & C-P39 since Bosch et al. reported two Greenlandic C-RPS4Y Y chromosomes? <br /><br />On the maternal side, haplogroup D2 has been clearly demonstrated as being the mtDNA Paleo-eskimo marker but what of D3 (aka D4b1a2a1) which is also clearly of Asian origin? It was either part of the Paleo Eskimo migration or a separate one from Asia.G Horvathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09821897990245113279noreply@blogger.com