tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post2299114685749871182..comments2024-03-27T22:28:06.861-06:00Comments on Dispatches From Turtle Island: Explaining South Asian Genetics And Dravidian Linguistic UnityAndrew Oh-Willekehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-87368635636086844902013-08-10T22:30:51.555-06:002013-08-10T22:30:51.555-06:00"If so, why is the ANI and IE signatures espe..."If so, why is the ANI and IE signatures especially carried by Brahmins, who are the Hinduist priestly caste and the greatest enemies of Buddhism historically"<br /><br />The pre-Asoka leaders of the dynasty and its predecessor weren't Buddhists and were very unlike him in style and policy. He basically stopped the trend brought about by his predecessors in its tracks from the top, a bit like Gorbachev and the Soviet Union.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-40610732132350352422013-08-10T12:17:36.910-06:002013-08-10T12:17:36.910-06:00Going to the paper, it does have some powerful arg...Going to the paper, it does have some powerful arguments for single-pulse admixture (table 2), at least for many populations. Probably their p<0.05 line is a bit too loose but, even if we are strict and use p<0.001, 6/11 populations are within bounds. So, assuming that the statistical methods applied are correct, then there was a single pulse of ANI-ASI admixture almost for sure in the following cases: Brahmin, Bhil, Mala, Dharkar, Sindhi and Pathan. These are all IE speakers from the NW excepting the Mala. All other Dravidians (Vysya and Madiga) are quite unlikely to be the product of a single pulse (p>0.05), while other IE groups like the Ksatriya (former warrior caste), the Kashmiri Pandit (upper caste) and the Chamar (tribe) are in between those values. Not sure what these differences mean but it seems that in many cases there was a single admixture event.<br /><br />Also it is very clear in the paper that Pop1 (ANI) is of West Asian origin (Georgians as best reference) and not European (Basques as reference). Actually in Europe they are closest to Italians (Balcans not compared), what is consistent with West Asian origins of the so-called ANI component rather than IE origins from Eastern Europe and Central Asia. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-63840131811036606892013-08-10T11:47:52.914-06:002013-08-10T11:47:52.914-06:00Someone else read the comment, it seems, and sent ...Someone else read the comment, it seems, and sent me a copy already. I'll send you a copy, as you seem so interested. <br /><br />"I have no doubt that Indo-Aryan expansion out of NW India happened and that it transformed India both demographically and linguistically at about the time traditionally attributed to it".<br /><br />I have many doubts about all that, especially about the demographic impact. Instead we do know that Neolithic expansion and IVC influences, even after the IE conquest, were important. A component that is centered in Balochistan and West Asia looks anything but Indoeuropean. However, as some people have noticed some groups (notably Brahmins) have an specifically European signature that is probably associated to the IE conquest. However it is rather minor in comparison with the aboriginal (ASI) and West Asian (ANI/Baloch-Caucasian) components. <br /><br />... "series of expansions originating in Northern India that culminated in the rule of King Ashoka"...<br /><br />If so, why is the ANI and IE signatures especially carried by Brahmins, who are the Hinduist priestly caste and the greatest enemies of Buddhism historically, as well as any other movement against caste hierarchy? Notice that Asoka's kingdom originated in what is now Bengal, Bihar, Orissa, etc., and not in the NW. It seems to me that Buddhism is a reaction to Vedic Hinduism (i.e. the archaic and more purely IE variant of non-Shaivite, non-Shakti, Hinduism, with Indra (~Zeus) and Vishnu (~Apolo) on top) and especially the hierarchical caste system, with much weaker roots in the South and East. <br /><br />Other reactions are Shaivism and especially the Shakti variant. Modern Hinduism is a complex and often contradictory synthesis of Vedic remnants, Shaivism/Shaktism and diverse local cults. The opposition between these two currents is still apparent between for example the Babas (street monks) and the Brahmins (caste priests), who don't see each other too well. <br /><br />Even Jainism is also a (very ascetic) reaction to caste Hinduism. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-68096534323219660112013-08-09T12:35:17.840-06:002013-08-09T12:35:17.840-06:00I don't have an open access copy of the study....I don't have an open access copy of the study. But, the quotes and discussions from others who do and my familiarity with the topic are enough to make sense of what is likely going on.<br /><br />I have no doubt that Indo-Aryan expansion out of NW India happened and that it transformed India both demographically and linguistically at about the time traditionally attributed to it. Also, on the basis of the uniparental markers, particularly the male ones, I think it is fair to assume that there was some West Eurasian component to Indo-Aryan expansion.<br /><br />However, I don't disagree that a lot of autosomal ANI is attributable to an Indus River Valley Civilization/Harappan substrate that was present before culturally and linguistically Indo-European people arrived on the scene around 2000 BCE. My suspicion is that this is the biggest source of it and probably dates from the IVC Neolithic ca. 6000-7000 BCE, with smaller additional contributions from pre-Neolitical clinal variation in forager populations and from West Eurasian Indo-Europeans (probably from a source in or near the Caucasus Mountains).<br /><br />I suspect that the secondary expansion that is being picked up corresponds to the series of expansions originating in Northern India that culminated in the rule of King Ashoka, a hailed as an enlightened prince who ushered in a brief era during which Buddhism was the official religion of India, a religious movement that didn't last in India but had long standing impact in SE Asia and E Asia.<br /><br />While Ashoka's empire covered almost the entire subcontinent, until that of his predecessors in the dynasty and the kingdom that preceded the Maurya dynasty, he, unlikely his predecessors disavowed the brutal conquests of his father and grandfather that likely had more of a demographic impact than his own more peaceful method of consolidating power.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-68732125211051789922013-08-08T22:01:03.288-06:002013-08-08T22:01:03.288-06:00I'm re-reading Metspalu 2011 and sadly there i...I'm re-reading Metspalu 2011 and sadly there is no Fst table between components, only between "raw" populations. These however show much stronger affinity within South Asia than with any other population. Even Pakistan, which is more intermediate, does not show any particular European affinity. <br /><br />The ANI component seems to be the Balochi-Caucasian one, i.e. a likely West Asian Neolithic component, totally unrelated to IE migrations. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-66192074985186732602013-08-08T21:16:56.429-06:002013-08-08T21:16:56.429-06:00Congratulations, Andrew. It is a very well explain...Congratulations, Andrew. It is a very well explained article that I enjoyed reading very much. <br /><br />Now, as you know I am not at all confident of molecular clock estimates and what you explain in the article does not seem to underline their solidity: in pure theory there could have been even hundreds or thousands of older ANI-ASI admixture episodes that would not be accounted for, right?<br /><br />As you may also know, I strongly doubt that the ANI component can be related to Indoeuropean invasions. If so it'd be very close to that of Eastern Europe and AFAIK it is not: it is closest to ASI, then to West Asia, etc. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, of course. <br /><br />Just because ANI is closer to the wider West Eurasian component than ASI, it does not make it derived from West Eurasia, much less recently so. It could for example be the other way around (ANI → WEA instead of WEA → ANI) or belong to a much older back-migration from West Asia, for example in the Neolithic. My way to study this would be to run Admixture and check for Fst distances, which may be organized in a hierarchical tree-like form. I haven't yet done that so I don't know which is the result but I have heard of such kind of criticisms to the Eurocentric interpretation of the ANI/ASI duality. <br /><br />For example all Indians are clearly less distant from Tuscans (Fst values: 6.2-11.5) than from NW Europeans (Fst values: 10.4-15.8), ref. http://genomebiology.com/content/pdf/gb-2010-11-11-r113.pdf<br /><br />Also North Indians/Brahmins seem less diverse than South Indians, however they are more diverse than Europeans or East Asians. So I believe that there is an oversimplification going on here, probably caused by wrong approaches, in turn caused by an Eurocentric bias that disdains Indian great diversity and antiquity and makes incoherent assumptions. <br /><br />But I have not studied the matter in enough depth, so I am not sure. <br /><br />I still suspect that the fact that the ANI-ASI admixture being older in the South may be caused by an ancient expansion from North India, and that the more recent ANI-ASI admixture dates in North India may be caused by an expansion from the South at a later time. But this is very hypothetical and needs testing. <br /><br />BTW, can you send me a copy of the study to lialdamiz[at]gmail[dot]com? Thanks in advance. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.com