tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post2567072730641368420..comments2024-03-28T21:52:52.100-06:00Comments on Dispatches From Turtle Island: Science On A Green VenusAndrew Oh-Willekehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-19804010554662537212015-02-09T17:10:02.981-07:002015-02-09T17:10:02.981-07:00They could predict heavy elements, minus their rad...They could predict heavy elements, minus their radioactive feature much in the same way that we do for undiscovered heavy elements, although they would be at a loss to explain why there are the number of elements that they are or why they have the relative abundance that they do (something that can be done with some detail using the theory of nucleosynthesis).andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-81349152317266515662015-02-06T21:24:46.594-07:002015-02-06T21:24:46.594-07:00Hi Andrew,
It's an interesting thought experi...Hi Andrew,<br /><br />It's an interesting thought experiment.<br /><br />I got that they wouldn't have been able to make astronomical observations very easily.<br /><br />Maybe they could predict heavy elements just from the atomic model (not radioactive decay) ?<br /><br />I know that our real Venus is not a Green Venus. Too bad.<br /><br />:)Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-6026995388194247302015-02-06T20:53:37.792-07:002015-02-06T20:53:37.792-07:00They wouldn't develop general relativity becau...They wouldn't develop general relativity because you need astronomy observations to observe any situation when GR differs from Newtonian gravity and they wouldn't be able to make any astronomy observations that would discern those effects. Occam's razor would win.<br /><br />They would know that elements are missing from their periodic table, but they very likely wouldn't be able to predict the phenomena of radioactive decay which is a non-QED phenomena that is observed mostly in radioactive decay (it involves the nuclear weak force). Without experiencing radioactive decay they would have trouble figuring out why the gaps were present in their periodic table. There would probably be some phenomenological rules describing how many neutrons are present in an atom, but we can't work that out from first principles even knowing the strong force rules of QCD perfectly, and nuclear fusion would be much more challenging for them to achieve without nuclear fission of radioactive elements to trigger it.<br /><br />Green Venus differs from our own Venus mostly because our planet is a toxic acid molten hell underneath the clouds, while this one would be more or less Earth-like beneath the clouds.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-11596096135613444472015-02-06T12:42:58.686-07:002015-02-06T12:42:58.686-07:00Like our planet Venus,
*it has a nearly circular...Like our planet Venus, <br /><br />*it has a nearly circular orbit around its star with an orbital period in the same time range of Earth and Venus, <br /><br />*it doesn't have a moon, <br /><br />*it has no detectable magnetic field, it is geologically active, <br /><br />*it is located in the "habitable zone" from its star, <br /><br />*it is similar in gravity and size to Earth, <br /><br />*it is a terrestrial planet with a continent sized solid surface, <br /><br />*it has clouds that admit heat. (?) <br /><br />* it is rarely clear enough to allow someone on the surface to see the stars or planets.<br /><br />* It is mountainous and geologically active to a similar degree to Earth. <br /><br />*None of the elements that do not naturally occur on Earth, like Technetium and elements with atomic numbers of 93 or greater, are found in nature on Green Venus.<br /><br />* Green Venus has large and deep oceans of salt water that cover most of its surface, it has many fresh water lakes and rivers, and it has an atmosphere essential identical to Earth's in chemical composition and surface air pressure.<br /><br />*Green Venus is not as tilted on its axis relative to the plane in which it orbits as Earth and has a more circular orbit and few tidal influences, so it experiences considerably less seasonal variation than Earth.<br /><br />*Critically, millions of years of intense struggles to survive in the face of natural conditions and fierce predators have produces a species of highly intelligent life on Green Venus that has become the dominant species on the planet with a vast, flourishing and sophisticated civilization.<br /><br /><br />[here, we enter the realm of fantasy. At least on Earth, much of evolution has been driven by climatic variation, and even meteoric impacts, which you eliminate in your scenario. You're not accounting for the randomness of unlikely events in Earth's history, which have influenced evolution.]<br /><br />"What Kind of Science Would Green Venusian Develop?"<br /><br />Probabilistically, none. Complex life, on Earth, or anywhere, is probabilistically unlikely.<br /><br />"In all areas of inquiry available to it, from mathematics, to social sciences, to organic chemistry, and so on, it would excel."<br /><br />Again, we are entering the realm of science fiction here. Frogs are a complex life form, but they do not do science (or math).<br /><br />"It would not have general relativity."<br /><br />Well, if complex life had developed on Green Venus, and had managed to be able to do math and physics, I fail to see why the Green Venusians would have developed Newtonian physics but not General Relativity.<br /><br />If the Venusians actually got around to developing QED, they would certainly be able to predict the occurrence of the elements Polonium, Astatine, Francium, Radon, Thorium, Protactinium, or Uranium in the Universe (even if they did not naturally occur on Venus.)<br /><br />The occurrence of these elements in the Universe can be predicted from the electron, neutron, proton model of the atom, as it was, on Earth, more than a hundred years ago.<br /><br />Pretty basic physics.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.com