tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post7004822745272556313..comments2024-03-27T22:28:06.861-06:00Comments on Dispatches From Turtle Island: mtDNA U3a1Andrew Oh-Willekehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-77777089592401276712020-09-04T15:45:20.466-06:002020-09-04T15:45:20.466-06:00This is my mother's haplogrop, which she can t...This is my mother's haplogrop, which she can trace back to a woman born 1745 in Etne province, Norway. And yes, there was quite a bit of cousins marrying cousins among the various farms in Etne.beakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02761715521889719357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-68922128840489096642018-04-25T03:00:41.131-06:002018-04-25T03:00:41.131-06:00Probably Scotland and Ireland. It's between 3%...Probably Scotland and Ireland. It's between 3% and 4% in Iceland but around 1% in Scotland. It mystifies me that the founder effect isn't stronger, since the maternal lines which carry it are strongly associated with the landowning class of the late middle ages and early modern period. Perhaps because they were always marrying their cousins to keep the land in the family or at least within their class?<br />Elíashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15361730767496627151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-6097760513916736152018-04-24T12:24:45.554-06:002018-04-24T12:24:45.554-06:00Going back through this entry and comments on toda...Going back through this entry and comments on today's knowledge, it seems clear to me that U3a spread with the Vasconic Neolithic of Aegean roots (the pattern is absolutely typical Neolithic, including the U3a1 founder effect in the West and the spread to NW Africa) and that's about it. Call them "Atlanteans" if that makes you happy, Elías (but Atlanteans from non-submerged anything because nothing was submerged in Platon's narrative, mind you, that's just Americans making up fantasies and selling them to the world). As for Iceland it must be derived from Norway, Scotland and/or Ireland. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-4803104413021546442018-04-24T11:31:58.990-06:002018-04-24T11:31:58.990-06:00But you have to admit; this distribution pattern m...But you have to admit; this distribution pattern makes no sense.<br />Another hypothesis of mine is that it was carried by the pre-modern slave trade.<br />I'm also mystified by its rarity, which is strange when one looks at it in the context of how common it is among certain classes in Iceland. I think that at the moment, it raises more questions about the history of my country than we could answer.<br /><br />Elíashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15361730767496627151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-77063657340641285322018-03-20T03:19:23.128-06:002018-03-20T03:19:23.128-06:00@Elias You are not going to get hired in the hypot...@Elias You are not going to get hired in the hypothesis generation department, but you may have a shot at the creative writing faculty.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-59877011404304217282018-03-16T15:07:02.225-06:002018-03-16T15:07:02.225-06:00Up to half of the big names in Icelandic history h...Up to half of the big names in Icelandic history have U3a1. They completely ruled in 1500-1700. Davíð Oddsson, ex-mayor, ex-prime minister and disgraced chief treasurer and present editor of Morgunblaðið has U3a1. Elíashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15361730767496627151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-42298028224270983502018-03-16T14:59:39.006-06:002018-03-16T14:59:39.006-06:00Besides the obvious implication of that they'r...Besides the obvious implication of that they're descendents of Freyja, the sex godess with the giant cats, of whom Snorri Sturluson said that she arrived with her people, the Vanir, who had travelled with the Æsir to Scandinavia from the Black Sea, I offer three hypotheses:<br /><br />1) They are Atlanteans who survived the submerging of Atlantis by reaching the shores of Europe<br />2) They are Selkies, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selkie<br />3) They do not thrive away from the sea and are selected against in non-marine environments.<br />Elíashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15361730767496627151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-42953543341102228052016-12-09T10:26:53.999-07:002016-12-09T10:26:53.999-07:00Thanks for the tip.Thanks for the tip.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-90368449673802016172016-12-05T13:27:02.624-07:002016-12-05T13:27:02.624-07:00mtDNA haplogroup U3 is found in Chad in Arabs and ...mtDNA haplogroup U3 is found in Chad in Arabs and Buduma, although subclade not specified (also U4 in Shuwa). http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0018682Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13013399855770625556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-12840872071529066862016-10-31T11:20:14.550-06:002016-10-31T11:20:14.550-06:00Absolutely fair.Absolutely fair.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-45666392785429313332016-10-30T14:38:57.563-06:002016-10-30T14:38:57.563-06:00"Absolute dating is hard."
Absolutely! ..."Absolute dating is hard."<br /><br />Absolutely! All the dates I mentioned should be considered very approximative "educated hunches". However I do have a very radical criticism about the usual dates with the usual "molecular clock" methods, very particularly when applied to mtDNA, because they are almost invariably absurd. This is because they use methods devised some two decades ago, proven wrong once and again, but still reused because it is what you do when you are trapped in the University system, which demands scholasticism quite apparently, at least in population genetics: you just cite the old papers with no creativity nor criticism whatsoever and that seems to make you "right". Well, no: you could equally cite the Bible or Kant's "Critical Reason" (both equally junk but revered) as the basis for your conclusions, it's junk in: junk out. Revered junk is just useless junk all the same. <br /><br />My reasoning about my guesstimates is explicit, clear and debatable, the reasoning behind "academic" versions of the "molecular clock" is hidden, obscure and beyond debate apparently. I'd really appreciate if people would stop believing what they are told and began thinking on their own, really, because science is not about "beliefs" nor about "authority" but about proven facts and sound logic. <br /><br />Just to make sure, I'm not at any moment questioning your hypothesis about U3a1a, just questioning pseudoscientific albeit "academic" molecular-clock-o-logy mentioned a bit too happily, acritically, in your article.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-34248605113946670342016-10-29T18:22:09.474-06:002016-10-29T18:22:09.474-06:00Absolute dating is hard. And, there seems to be a ...Absolute dating is hard. And, there seems to be a case that U3a1 arose about 9 kya, which would suggest that U3a1c arose later, although admittedly if that calibration of the mtDNA clock is right, it would be a stretch for it to be ca. 3700 BCE or later, rather than Mesolithic or early Neolithic.<br /><br />The trouble is, it could very well have come into being in the early Neolithic somewhere in Western Europe (probably SW Europe) in the early Neolithic (and hence absent from other places where U3a is found) and then been present in a gene pool that wasn't expanding very rapidly until an expansion in connection with Bell Beaker. andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-42853227264979973862016-10-29T04:32:48.227-06:002016-10-29T04:32:48.227-06:00"It is U3a1c that I would suspect has relativ..."It is U3a1c that I would suspect has relatively recent time depth."<br /><br />It seems I got that wrong. Sorry.<br /><br />Anyhow, have you even checked PhyloTree before making that claim? Because U3a1c is only separated of U3a1 by a HVS-I mutation, T16356C, so it should be about the same age as U3a1a and U3a1b (both accumulation one coding region mutation at the stem), maybe even older. Of course the molecular clock is not at all an exact method but there's nothing else we can use anyhow. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-4827612791143477962016-10-28T10:21:52.593-06:002016-10-28T10:21:52.593-06:00To be clear, I understand that the find is U3a and...To be clear, I understand that the find is U3a and not necessarily U3a1, but it is U3a1 and especially U3a1c that is the really interesting one in terms of distribution.<br /><br />Also, I absolutely recognize that U3c is old. It is U3a1c that I would suspect has relatively recent time depth.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-23641705026120062642016-10-28T02:14:37.644-06:002016-10-28T02:14:37.644-06:00More complete, albeit also speculative, chronologi...More complete, albeit also speculative, chronological reconstruction (coding region only):<br /><br />→ A1811G → U2'3'4'7'8'9 (probably c. 40-45 Ka old)<br />·→ A14139G T15454C → U3<br />··→ A2294G T4703C G9266A → U3ac<br />···→ C6518T A10506G C13934T → U3a<br />····→ G3010A → U3a1<br />·····→ G7521A! → U3a1a<br />···→ T12843C A15613G → U3c<br />·→ T9698C → U8<br />··→ A3480G → U8b'c<br />···→ C7031T A10398G! → U8c (branch details not fully confirmed)<br /><br />U in general is (unlike H) a fast-evolving haplogroup. But it's good to have calibration points anyhow, dates that act as terminus ante quem and that can only come from the archaeogenetic databases. We know, to begin with, that some U2 and other U lineages (U8c, U6, U5, U*) are found in the earliest sequenced European Upper Paleolithic (between 39 and 31 Ka BP), and we infer from its geo-structure that U in general must have expanded within the West Eurasian Upper Paleolithic c. 50-45 Ka BP. From this we can infer that U is about 50 Ka old and U2'3'4'7'8'9 about 40-45 Ka old. <br /><br />To be more precise: the oldest known U2 is dated to 38 Ka BP (Kostenki), U8c c. 32 Ka BP (Paglicci), U6 c. 33 Ka BP (Pestera Muierilor) and U5 to 31 Ka BP (Krems). I added U8c to the tree above so we can compare: we know that U8c is four c.r. mutations downstream of U2'3'4'7'8'9 and that it is at least 32 Ka old. Let's say "35 Ka" for safety.<br /><br />So, if U2'3'4'7'8'9 is c. 45 Ka old (older seems unlikely) and U8c c. 35 Ka old, each mutation took some 2.5 Ka to complete with the "molecular clock" method, maybe a bit more. Stretching the time lapse at the extreme, U is 50 Ka old and U8c 30 Ka old (most recent possible date is 30.6 Ka calBP), so 5 mutations divided by 20 Ka is 4 Ka per mutation. Let's take this last longest possible chronology, that would make:<br /><br />→ U2'3'4'7'8'9: 46 Ka<br />·→ U3: 42 Ka<br />··→ U3ac: 30 Ka<br />···→ U3a: 18 Ka<br />····→ U3a1: 14 Ka<br />·····→ U3a1a: 10 Ka<br />···→ <b>U3c: 22 Ka</b><br /><br />So let me remain extremely skeptic about the claims of the "hyper-recent" origin of U3c, most probably caused by lack of sufficient knowledge of the relatively rare haplogroup. Being unsuccessful or non-European does not equal to be "recent". Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-13954229649118282052016-10-28T01:38:20.433-06:002016-10-28T01:38:20.433-06:00Also re. chronologies, I would not dare to conside...Also re. chronologies, I would not dare to consider U3c as more recent than U3a. The tree is as follows (root at U3ac):<br /><br />→ C6518T A10506G C13934T (G16390A) → U3a<br />→ T12843C A15613G (C16193T T16249C G16526A) → U3c<br /><br />So U3a took THREE coding region mutations, while U3c took only TWO (in brackets are the HVS-I transitions, which are much less reliable for clock purposes, because they seem to "compensate" changes in the coding region, at least partly). So IMO U3c looks older than U3a, one "tick" older. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7315236707728759521.post-68527406012732439822016-10-28T01:33:43.793-06:002016-10-28T01:33:43.793-06:00They report it as U3a and not U3a1. Granted that i...They report it as <b>U3a</b> and not U3a1. Granted that it might be U3a1 or even U3a1a, as they are only using (quite probably, not specified) HVS-I for "identification" of haplogroups, but this is by no means certain. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.com