Monday, November 25, 2019

Hungarian Scientists Almost Surely Didn't Discover A Fifth Force

Scientists at the Institute for Nuclear Research at the Hungarian Academy of Sciences (Atomki) have posted findings showing what could be an example of that fifth force at work. 
The scientists were closely watching how an excited helium atom emitted light as it decayed. The particles split at an unusual angle -- 115 degrees -- which couldn't be explained by known physics. 
The study's lead scientist, Attila Krasznahorkay, told CNN that this was the second time his team had detected a new particle, which they call X17, because they calculated its mass at 17 megaelectronvolts. 
"X17 could be a particle, which connects our visible world with the dark matter," he said in an email.
From CNN (previous papers by the same group are linked to in the story with hyperlinks).

The odds are at least 98% that Hungarian scientists have made some sort of experimental error and have not discovered a fifth force (approximately the precision with which non-Standard Model physics are typically ruled out in broad ranging searches for "new physics" that aren't specifically predicted by a particular hypothesis of interest).

Why? 

Because there are a great many experiments that could have detected the 17 MeV mass particle that they claim to have seen (e.g. LEC, Tevatron, LHCb, ATLAS, CMS, Jefferson Labs, etc.) and none of the other experiments have replicated this result. ATLAS and CMS are sensitive to new physics particles up to about 1,000,000,000 MeV of mass. The two experiments at the Tevatron collider were sensitive to particles up to about 200,000 MeV of mass. The LEC was sensitive to particles up to about 100,000 MeV of mass. Particles with masses on the order of 17 MeV have been possible to observe in high energy physics experiments since the 1960s, if not earlier, and nobody has claimed to see them, until now.

More generally, myriad other high energy physics calculations would be affected by such a fifth force but are adequately explained by the plain old three forces of the Standard Model (also ignoring gravity).

17 MeV is about 34 times the mass of an electron, a muon is about 6 times as massive as 17 MeV, a pion (the lightest particle made out of quarks, which never appear in isolation in the real world) is about 8 times as massive as 17 MeV, and a proton or neutron is about 54 times as massive as 17 MeV. Neutrinos are on the order of a million or more times less massive than 17 MeV.

Particles such as this hypothetical particle, which purportedly have effects which can be seen electromagnetically (such as interactions involving the emission of light as claimed in this article), are particularly easy to see experimentally, because experimental electromagnetic measurements are among the most precise of all kinds of scientific measurements. The polarization and energies of single photons can be measured with modern physics instrumentation.

17 MeV is also a poor fit to most astronomy data related to hypothetical dark matter particle candidates based upon the inferred mean velocity of dark matter particle candidates in thermal freeze out scenarios, which tend to favor "warm dark matter" candidates on the order of 10,000 times less massive than 17 MeV.

Also, while a helium atom may seen pretty simple (usually two protons and two neutrons), this atom is close to the boundary of what it is possible to calculate from first principles from the Standard Model of Physics, and "hadronic matter" (i.e. particles made up of bound compound particles made of quarks), which is described with a combination of the strong force described by quantum chromodynamics (QCD), the electromagnetic force described by quantum electrodynamics (QED), and the Standard Model physics of the weak force, are exceedingly challenging to model mathematically from first principles. Almost all such calculations, in practice, are done using numerical approximations that each have their flaws and are least reliable in the low energy regimes (i.e. for masses and energies on the order of 2 GeV or so, plus or minus, with a helium atom having a mass of approximately 4 GeV) in which QCD calculations become "non-perturbative" (which basically means highly non-linear).

How else can you tell?

Any genuinely plausible experimental anomaly routinely results in hundreds of research papers attempting to explain this phenomena written by physicists all over the world, in a matter of weeks. This paper has generated no such academic interest, effectively illustrating an implicit form of negative peer review. If the claims of a fifth force held water, the physics pre-print depositor arXiv would be full of papers trying to explain this anomaly and it isn't.

10 comments:

neo said...

How else can you tell?

Any genuinely plausible experimental anomaly routinely results in hundreds of research papers attempting to explain this phenomena written by physicists all over the world, in a matter of weeks. This paper has generated no such academic interest, effectively illustrating an implicit form of negative peer review. If the claims of a fifth force held water, the physics pre-print depositor arXiv would be full of papers trying to explain this anomaly and it isn't.Protophobic Fifth Force Interpretation of the Observed Anomaly in 8Be Nuclear Transitions
Jonathan L. Feng, Bartosz Fornal, Iftah Galon, Susan Gardner, Jordan Smolinsky, Tim M. P. Tait, Philip Tanedo
(Submitted on 25 Apr 2016 (v1), last revised 15 Aug 2016 (this version, v2))

Recently a 6.8σ anomaly has been reported in the opening angle and invariant mass distributions of e+e− pairs produced in 8Be nuclear transitions. The data are explained by a 17 MeV vector gauge boson X that is produced in the decay of an excited state to the ground state, 8Be∗→8BeX, and then decays through X→e+e−. The X boson mediates a fifth force with a characteristic range of 12 fm and has milli-charged couplings to up and down quarks and electrons, and a proton coupling that is suppressed relative to neutrons. The protophobic X boson may also alleviate the current 3.6σ discrepancy between the predicted and measured values of the muon's anomalous magnetic moment.

Comments: 6 pages, 2 figures; v2: published version
Subjects: High Energy Physics - Phenomenology (hep-ph); High Energy Physics - Experiment (hep-ex); Nuclear Experiment (nucl-ex); Nuclear Theory (nucl-th)
Journal reference: Phys. Rev. Lett. 117, 071803 (2016)
DOI: 10.1103/PhysRevLett.117.071803
Report number: UCI-TR-2016-09
Cite as: arXiv:1604.07411 [hep-ph]Citations for 1604.07411
Result of INSPIRE search:

1. INSPIRE database (no identifier returned): [INSPIRE record]
Searching for the double -decay of the X(17) particle
A. Nagy, A.J. Krasznahorkay, M. Ciemala, M. Csatlós, L. Csige, Z. Gácsi, M. Hunyadi, T. Klaus, M. Kmiecik, A. Maj, N. Pietralla, Zs. Révay, N. Sas, C. Stieghorst, J. Tímár, T. Tornyi, B. Wasilewska
SLAC-comments: *Brief entry*
2. arXiv:1911.05345 [pdf, other]
Relativistic effects in search for new intra-atomic force with isotope shifts
Minoru Tanaka, Yasuhiro Yamamoto
Comments: 15 pages, 3 figures
Subjects: High Energy Physics - Phenomenology (hep-ph); Atomic Physics (physics.atom-ph)
3. No arXiv entry [INSPIRE record]:
Light Anti-Quark Flavor Asymmetry in the Nucleon Sea and the Nuclear Dependence of Anit-Quarks in Nuclei at the Seaquest Experiment
Arun S. Tadepalli
INSPIRE-comments: Oct-2019
4. arXiv:1911.01360 [pdf, ps, other]
The fifth force?
Abhishek Das, B G Sidharth

neo said...

Particles such as this hypothetical particle, which purportedly have effects which can be seen electromagnetically (such as interactions involving the emission of light as claimed in this article), are particularly easy to see experimentally, because experimental electromagnetic measurements are among the most precise of all kinds of scientific measurements. The polarization and energies of single photons can be measured with modern physics instrumentation.The data are explained by a 17 MeV vector gauge boson X that is produced in the decay of an excited state to the ground state, 8Be∗→8BeX, and then decays through X→e+e−. The X boson mediates a fifth force with a characteristic range of 12 fm and has milli-charged couplings to up and down quarks and electrons, and a proton coupling that is suppressed relative to neutrons.

neo said...

17 MeV is also a poor fit to most astronomy data related to hypothetical dark matter particle candidates based upon the inferred mean velocity of dark matter particle candidates in thermal freeze out scenarios, which tend to favor "warm dark matter" candidates on the order of 10,000 times less massive than 17 MeV.

This new boson couldn't possibly be one of the particles carrying the four known forces, thanks to its distinctive mass of 17 megaelectronvolts (or about 33 times that of an electron), and tiny life span (of about 10 to the minus 14 seconds … but hey, it's long enough to smile for the camera).https://www.businessinsider.com/physicists-discovered-new-fifth-force-of-nature-dark-matter-problem-2019-11

neo said...

Particles such as this hypothetical particle, which purportedly have effects which can be seen electromagnetically (such as interactions involving the emission of light as claimed in this article),The scientists were closely watching how an excited helium atom emitted light as it decayed. The particles split at an unusual angle -- 115 degrees -- which couldn't be explained by known physics.https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/22/world/fifth-force-of-nature-scn-trnd/index.html?utm_term=link&utm_content=2019-11-23T04%3A15%3A05&utm_medium=social&utm_source=fbCNN&fbclid=IwAR0iQ05EU7d0ggtRDNDYi0hoN9DMXjkTp4R27XlxDJ2RA_5SVY7QBCEjT0YSimilar to their previous discovery, the researchers found pairs of electrons and positrons separating at an angle that didn't match currently accepted models. This time, the number was closer to 115 degrees.

Working backwards, the team calculated the helium's nucleus could also have produced a short-lived boson with a mass just under 17 megaelectronvolts.

To keep it simple, they're calling it X17. It's a long way from being an official particle we can add to any models of matter.

While 2016's experiment was accepted into the respectable journal, Physical Review Letters, this latest study is yet to be peer reviewed. You can read the findings yourself on arXiv, where they've been uploaded to be scrutinised by others in the field.

But if this strange boson isn't just an illusion caused by some experimental blip, the fact it interacts with neutrons hints at a force that acts nothing like the traditional four.With the ghostly pull of dark matter posing one of the biggest mysteries in physics today, a completely new fundamental particle could point to a solution we're all craving, providing a way to connect the matter we can see with the matter we can't.

In fact, a number of dark matter experiments have been keeping an eye out for a 17 megavolt oddball particle. So far they've found nothing, but with plenty of room left to explore, it's too early to rule anything out.

Rearranging the Standard Model of known forces and their particles to make room for a new member of the family would be a massive shift, and not a change to make lightly.

Still, something like X17 could be just what we're looking for.

This research is available on arXiv ahead of peer review.https://www.sciencealert.com/physicists-claim-a-they-ve-found-even-more-evidence-of-a-new-force-of-nature

neo said...

Protophobic Fifth Force Interpretation of the Observed ...
https://arxiv.org › hep-ph
by JL Feng - ‎2016 - ‎Cited by 129 - ‎Related articles
Apr 25, 2016 - Protophobic Fifth Force Interpretation of the Observed Anomaly in ^8Be Nuclear Transitions. ... The X boson mediates a fifth force with a characteristic range of 12 fm and has milli-charged couplings to up and down quarks and electrons, and a proton coupling that is suppressed relative to neutrons.Particle Physics Models for the 17 MeV Anomaly in Beryllium ...
https://arxiv.org › hep-ph
by JL Feng - ‎2016 - ‎Cited by 90 - ‎Related articles
Aug 11, 2016 - Particle Physics Models for the 17 MeV Anomaly in Beryllium Nuclear Decays. ... To develop its particle interpretation, we provide an effective operator analysis for excited 8Be decays to particles with a variety of spins and parities and show that these considerations exclude simple models with scalar particles.Particle Physics Models for the 17 MeV Anomaly in Beryllium Nuclear Decays
Jonathan L. Feng, Bartosz Fornal, Iftah Galon, Susan Gardner, Jordan Smolinsky, Tim M. P. Tait, Philip Tanedo
(Submitted on 11 Aug 2016 (v1), last revised 18 Jan 2017 (this version, v2))

The 6.8σ anomaly in excited 8Be nuclear decays via internal pair creation is fit well by a new particle interpretation. In a previous analysis, we showed that a 17 MeV protophobic gauge boson provides a particle physics explanation of the anomaly consistent with all existing constraints. Here we begin with a review of the physics of internal pair creation in 8Be decays and the characteristics of the observed anomaly. To develop its particle interpretation, we provide an effective operator analysis for excited 8Be decays to particles with a variety of spins and parities and show that these considerations exclude simple models with scalar particles. We discuss the required couplings for a gauge boson to give the observed signal, highlighting the significant dependence on the precise mass of the boson and isospin mixing and breaking effects. We present anomaly-free extensions of the Standard Model that contain protophobic gauge bosons with the desired couplings to explain the 8Be anomaly. In the first model, the new force carrier is a U(1)B gauge boson that kinetically mixes with the photon; in the second model, it is a U(1)(B-L) gauge boson with a similar kinetic mixing. In both cases, the models predict relatively large charged lepton couplings ~ 0.001 that can resolve the discrepancy in the muon anomalous magnetic moment and are amenable to many experimental probes. The models also contain vectorlike leptons at the weak scale that may be accessible to near future LHC searches.

neo said...

Jonathan Feng, a professor of physics and astronomy at the University of California at Irvine told CNN he's been following the Hungarian team's work for years, and believes its research is shaping up to be a game changer.
If these results can be replicated, "this would be a no-brainer Nobel Prize," he said.Jonathan Lee Feng | UCI Physics and Astronomy
https://www.physics.uci.edu › people › jonathan-lee-feng
Jonathan Feng works at the interface of particle physics and cosmology with the goal of elucidating deep connections between our understanding of the ..Jonathan Lee Feng
Professor of Physics & Astronomy
jlf@uci.edu
(949) 824-9821
3162 Frederick Reines Hall
Research Area:
Particle Physics
Education:

Ph.D., Stanford University

Jonathan Feng works at the interface of particle physics and cosmology with the goal of elucidating deep connections between our understanding of the Universe at the smallest and largest length scales. In recent years, the fields of cosmology and particle physics have become increasingly interconnected. The workhorse tools of particle physics, giant colliders, like the Large Hadron Collider in Geneva, now recreate particle collisions at energies that existed just fractions of a second after the Big Bang, providing a window on the early Universe. At the same time, the most powerful telescopes have weighed the Universe and determined that the known particles make up only 5% of its mass, providing overwhelming evidence for particles that have not yet been discovered. Feng has contributed to these developments through his wide-ranging work on new particles and forces, dark matter, collider physics, cosmic rays, supersymmetry, and extra dimensions.

Feng holds degrees in physics and mathematics from Harvard, Cambridge, and Stanford universities. He joined the UC Irvine faculty in 2001 and was appointed Professor and Chancellor's Fellow in 2006. His work has been recognized by several awards, including the NSF CAREER Award, UCI's Distinguished Assistant Professor Award for Research, the Outstanding Young Researcher Award from the International Association of Chinese Physicists and Astronomers, a Sloan Research Fellowship, a Guggenheim Fellowship, and Simons Fellow and Investigator Awards. Feng is a frequent speaker at conferences and institutions around the world. He has been a member of the Aspen Center for Physics, co-chair of the Advisory Board of the Kavli Institute for Theoretical Physics, and editor-in-chief and editor of the journals Open Physics, Nuclear Physics B, and Physics Reports. He has served in numerous advisory roles for the National Science Foundation, the Department of Energy, and NASA, as well as for national science funding agencies abroad, including those of Austria, Canada, Hong Kong, Israel, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Taiwan, and the United Kingdom. In addition to research, Feng has mentored many undergraduates, graduate students, and postdoctoral fellows who have done award-winning research under his supervision.

neo said...

to clarify these postings,

in 2015 Hungarian lab studying dark photons and looking for photons observe excess of electron/position at 140 angle.

in 2016 Jonathan Feng et al, publish paper suggesting this is a new force boson, short lived, with mass of 16.7 meV with couplings on order of 10-4 to leptons

that paper has over 129 citations

the recent November 2019 is same Hungarin group observing it in helium, of the same particle as discussed by Feng

this particle if real decays into electron and positron

it is not itself a dark matter candidate, but suggested to be part of a hidden sector that includes an extension of the standard model with possible dark matter candidates, in other words this force may couple to leptons and to dark matter fermions

now, ethan siegal

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2019/11/26/this-is-why-the-x17-particle-and-a-new-fifth-force-probably-dont-exist/#46cfacf32e82

offers reasons to be skeptical but not the reasons you suggest. for him the reason to be most skeptical is experimental error.

this paper

arXiv:1803.07748 [pdf, other]
Search for a Hypothetical 16.7 MeV Gauge Boson and Dark Photons in the NA64 Experiment at CERN

did not find it, but they acknowledge that they only ruled out part of the parameter space, as this force coupling to leptons is weak the last sentence on page 4 states there is still a significant region that is unexplored.


Jonathan Feng Harvard/Stanford HEP research group wrote papers on this and is hopeful. physicists are looking for this, along with dark photons and w' and z', using positron/electron colliding, and only part of the allowed parameter space has been ruled out.





Unknown said...

I have the answer cjacks28@aum.edu

andrew said...

More discussion, analysis and links are present at https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/new-force-of-nature-discovered.980792/

neo said...

I am extremely skeptical. There are too many other experiments that should have seen it if it was real. There are too many other possible sources of error. There is too little peer enthusiasm.

Source https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/new-force-of-nature-discovered.980792/

"There is too little peer enthusiasm."

Feng's 2 papers on this topic have over 200+ citations between them, and finding this boson is the task of major research facilities such as CERN and PADME and Belle3

how is that too little peer enthusiasm?